DUST Search - To Rattati: HMG balance.

Alaika Arbosa wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Sequal's Back wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Her Chosen wrote:

Simple solution: Cut its range in half.

Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced

And you're still wrong.

Perfectly right to me ^^
This and a charge up time could balance the HUGE dps of the weapon. I'd say 0.6s. Then it can fire from 1800RPM to 3000RPM until it overheats.

At least it would require a bit of aiming, strategy, and heat management (that should be brought back to what it used to be pre 1.10.2 in this case).

Rattati said spool time is off the table.

Reducing the range much more and you're in danger of the sentinel class swapping wholesale to shotguns mass drivers and rifles. It's not a solution.

No one wants to admit that I'm right and sentinels need their asses booted from CQC but I'm right. CQC should be the domain of the armor brawling assault. Not the fatty fortress.

The more I play them, the more I am inclined to agree with you on that.

It isn't that I think they shouldn't do well in CQC, though I do think that they need to be able to apply DPS at a longer range than they can reliably now.

Which is why I posted what I did earlier in this thread. If the recoil was more pronounced in the aiming circle this would allow them to deal significant amounts of damage at close to mid range. If the recoil self-corrected after a short period, it would allow them to apply DPS more precisely and reliably at a longer range than current. The tradeoffs would be wait time (since they would need to dump 100+ shells before approaching precision), how ammo intensive this practice was and the spike in heat build once the barrels were self-correcting (thus not allowing them to apply sustained DPS at ~75m while still allowing them to maintain some appreciable effect with practice).


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Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7582	Posted - 2014.12.24 13:16:00 - [1] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Alena, your first solution is problematic. Increasing dispersion will shorten the range at which the HMG is effective while making it even easier to hit your target in close quarters. Since the current Heavy 514 meta is primarily a problem in confined spaces, this would exacerbate the problem by making HMG Sentinels stronger in close quarters where they are already too strong, while making them weaker in mid rang where they are already weak. I find your second proposal very interesting however. It puts reduced DPS on the back end, with a good explanation of the mechanics that cause it. It would reward player skill in heat management, while not penalizing the Spray & Prey crowd as drastically as a seize up. It still leaves the overheat seize up mechanic in place though for anyone who goes completely overboard. I would suggest: -At 75% heat the Rate of fire drops. -At 75% heat, due to the rate of fire dropping, the heat buildup drops too, so that the last 25% heat buildup takes a bit longer. With the heat reduction due to the rate of fire decreasing, the HMG would remain in this lower damage state longer before overheating. People who used HMG as a Spray & Prey weapon would spend a great deal of time in this lower damage state. While dedicated Sentinels would learn to control their heat in order to maintain higher on target DPS. It would be less frustrating than is initial rev up mechanic. It would also be add an additional element of player skill to the effective use of the weapon. Edit: I removed the suggestion I had for increasing dispersion at 75% heat as well. Although hot barrels makes me think of dispersion, it would be best to only change the variables of rate of fire and heat buildup at first so we can clearly see the effect, before considering adding another variable. It's an interesting proposal. I kinda of like the RoF drop as high heat builds up but I dislike the HMG for a different reason. My issue with the HMG, personally, isn't that it doesn't overheat too quickly. It's that I die too quickly. Once a Heavy has his sights on you he only has to hit the trigger for maybe a second before you die if you're in a lighter suit (Min Assault) and two seconds for a heavier suit (Amarr Assault). That isn't enough time to react accordingly. If I'm walking up on a Heavy trying to do hit-and-run style mechanics, such being the signature of the Minmatar Assault and the only way you can really deal with an HMG Heavy, I have to consider a few factors: A) He has the same turn speed as anyone else. This means that I have to engage him, and disengage as soon as he starts turning because he will be facing me by the time I point myself in the direction I want to retreat to. B) Speed is nothing with a 30m optimal. If I round the corner going 8m/sec, it's going to take me 4 seconds until I'm out of his optimal range, longer to get out of killing distance. That gives him plenty of time to just turn the corner and start firing. C) Damage application is insanely high, meaning there is absolutely no room for mistakes. You don't get the option to make a split-second decision, the decision has to have been made prior to engagement. D) In some instances (particular in Gallente Research Facility sockets) there will not be any opportunity for hit-and-run, long range, or orbitals. This is where the Heavy thrives, which wouldn't be a problem if there were some other way to counter them once six of them are dug into the same spot. All this amounts to two things: 1) Heavies are far too mobile in their own sector, not providing enough opportunity to flank them. 2) Their damage application is so high that they have time to not only react to a flanking maneuver but also neutralize the threat and still survive. IMO, the Heavies got what they wanted back in 1.8. They wanted the "Irrefutable King of CQC" and that's exactly what they got, but the problem is that without a counter there is no reason to use anything else. Cloaky scouts did a good job but when the meta shifted to CQC, Cloaky Scouts and HMG Heavies were the only viable options for objective-based gameplay (I.E: Everything). The reason HMGs became so powerful is because: In 1.7 they received proper dispersion as they used to be Laser Rifle Accurate, not filling up their circle reticle. They also received a healthy RoF buff and they were amazingly well balanced. News of a 10% damage reduction in all weapons -except- the HMG dropped and many of us saw a glaring issue on the horizon. I've been of the volition that the HMG needed to receive the same damage reduction ever since. EDIT: Forgot to mention that they (Sentinels) received some hefty damage reduction as well. So while TTK dropped in all other weapons, the HMG stayed the same, while also receiving a TTK increase on the only suit that can use them. My proposed solutions are: Keep the damage, nerf the turn speed... or nerf the damage to allow for better reaction times while still being powerful for point defense. Aeon's Links I often sound negative because I ask questions no-one else will.
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7584	Posted - 2014.12.24 14:13:00 - [2] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Sequal's Back wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Her Chosen wrote: Simple solution: Cut its range in half. Its a tanked out point defense. Vaporizing anything with that DPS beyond 20m is unbalanced And you're still wrong. Perfectly right to me ^^ This and a charge up time could balance the HUGE dps of the weapon. I'd say 0.6s. Then it can fire from 1800RPM to 3000RPM until it overheats. At least it would require a bit of aiming, strategy, and heat management (that should be brought back to what it used to be pre 1.10.2 in this case). Rattati said spool time is off the table. Reducing the range much more and you're in danger of the sentinel class swapping wholesale to shotguns mass drivers and rifles. It's not a solution. No one wants to admit that I'm right and sentinels need their asses booted from CQC but I'm right. CQC should be the domain of the armor brawling assault. Not the fatty fortress. The more I play them, the more I am inclined to agree with you on that. It isn't that I think they shouldn't do well in CQC, though I do think that they need to be able to apply DPS at a longer range than they can reliably now. Which is why I posted what I did earlier in this thread. If the recoil was more pronounced in the aiming circle this would allow them to deal significant amounts of damage at close to mid range. If the recoil self-corrected after a short period, it would allow them to apply DPS more precisely and reliably at a longer range than current. The tradeoffs would be wait time (since they would need to dump 100+ shells before approaching precision), how ammo intensive this practice was and the spike in heat build once the barrels were self-correcting (thus not allowing them to apply sustained DPS at ~75m while still allowing them to maintain some appreciable effect with practice). Naaah.... Kain Spero put it best in that the HMG is the only anti-infantry weapon available to Heavies and thereby, their entire playstyle is defined by the one gun. In the eventuality that there ever are any more heavy weapon, completely and drastically changing how the HMG performs is a bad option when we're so close to having it balanced just the way it is. IMO, we should wait before seriously considering using a hacksaw when we've been working so hard with a scalpel. Aeon's Links I often sound negative because I ask questions no-one else will.
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7594	Posted - 2014.12.25 05:38:00 - [3] - Quote Can spend years debating on what everyone wants for the HMG, saying one side or the other is just QQing, it won't solve anything. Everyone has a different viewpoint on what it should be but at least by asserting that it is a CQC weapon (as it is currently) we can restrict our feedback to a more specific topic: How to balance it in that range. Changing it to a ranged weapon only adds problems, it doesn't solve any, because we would have to completely strip away all the previous changes that were made to the weapon to refine it as it was designed in the first place. I don't see any point in grabbing a new sheet of paper when we've already erased and fixed the wobbly lines. Citing the Closed Beta HMG is also somewhat flawed because as I mentioned in a previous post the HMG was laser accurate and more effective at longer ranges before the "Optimal range = maximum range" conundrum when Uprising was first released. The weapon became more accurate the longer you fired it and it had no dispersion, so it being a longer ranged weapon than intended was a bug and not be design... Something they fixed in 1.7. I don't see any logical or rational evidence provided as to why it should be a longer ranged weapon other than entitlement and anecdotal evidence. There are much more simple solutions that exist to finish fine-tuning the weapon into balance than throwing all of that away and starting that from scratch because a handful of people said "I'm right and no-one wants to admit it" or "I've been playing heavy longer". EDIT: As a reminder, this is what the HMG was like before it actually got dispersion and an RoF increase: http://youtu.be/DPBRYgUGBbw Aeon's Links I often sound negative because I ask questions no-one else will.
Aeon Amadi Chimera Core 7610	Posted - 2014.12.26 00:17:00 - [4] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Quote: How to balance it in that range. You can't. This has been proven time and time again. Quote: Changing it to a ranged weapon only adds problems, it doesn't solve any, because we would have to completely strip away all the previous changes that were made to the weapon to refine it as it was designed in the first place. I don't see any point in grabbing a new sheet of paper when we've already erased and fixed the wobbly lines. the wobbly lines are still there, the damn thing resists balancing in CQC. Quote: Citing the Closed Beta HMG is also somewhat flawed because as I mentioned in a previous post the HMG was laser accurate Incorrect, the laser HMG was a product of UPRISING, not Closed Beta. In Uprising the Dispersion characteristic got knocked back to the laser beam. Quote: I don't see any logical or rational evidence provided as to why it should be a longer ranged weapon other than entitlement and anecdotal evidence. There are much more simple solutions that exist to finish fine-tuning the weapon into balance than throwing all of that away and starting that from scratch because a handful of people said "I'm right and no-one wants to admit it" or "I've been playing heavy longer". There is no more Evidence that it SHOULD be a CQC weapon than anecdote and opinion either. And without a drawback in CQC, adding range would be the idiot ball anyway, so quit cherry picking parts of peoples' ideas to point out why it's bad. Even though that's exactly what you're doing to support why it -shouldn't- be a CQC weapon..? Fair enough, if you're not going to budge on your opinion than neither will I. It's a CQC weapon. Deal with it. See, the difference here is I actually have an in-game current argument to support my opinion whereas you have hopes and dreams. We all know how well hopes and dreams work out in this game. But yanno feel free to continue saying it shouldn't be what it already is. Aeon's Links In an effort to be "positive" I will agree to everything CCP does.